Future Women podcast, Episode Ilsa Wakeling transcript

Future Women podcast, Ilsa Wakeling on being "too unwell."

Police careers promotion: Sally Spicer

Too Much is a podcast series proudly supported by Victoria Police, who are looking for more women to join their ranks. To explore a career with Victoria Police, visit the link in the show notes or head to police.vic.gov.au. 

Snippet: Ilsa Wakeling

When I said to my boss, “I'm really not doing great”, his response to me was, “Well, are you up to the job?”

Introduction: Helen McCabe 

Welcome to Too Much. A series where I speak to the extraordinary women who dared to defy suffocating stereotypes of how they should behave at work - and forged their own path. 

Ilsa Wakeling is an Acting Superintendent with Victoria Police. Today she joins me to discuss the challenges of rising through the ranks in a male-dominated field and how, in her new role, she’s paving a better path for the women following her lead.

And we also discuss the dangers of being labelled “too unwell.” 

Helen McCabe

Ilsa, welcome to the podcast. What are you working on at the moment? 

Ilsa Wakeling

Me. I am currently an Acting Superintendent at our safety services, which is within health, safety and wellbeing. Also within Human Resources Command, which is quite the challenge when you pick up the phone and try and announce who you are. 

The intent behind the role is that we cover the safety services of the entire Victoria Police. We have OHS consultants who deal with our everyday hazard identifications, or incident reports. 

And we also have our suspension reviews, which means if anyone is suspended from their equipment, due to an incident, then we do reviews on that to make sure that we've got our people safe and in control when they go back to work. 

Helen McCabe

So casting back to when you started. What was it like? Navigating the, what I imagine is a, pretty blokey environment.

Ilsa Wakeling

Yeah, I probably heavily relied on some of the female leaders that I had at the time. I remember I had a female sergeant who actually is still a friend of mine. She's now a superintendent, and we work within the same Command currently. Relied on them for the advice and support that I needed. At the same time, I think it was probably where I built a lot of resilience. 

And you would hear a lot of negative comments about females, I would probably shake it off at the early stages. But when I reflect on those sorts of certain circumstances or experiences, I actually understand that I think I had a lot of growth in that time. 

You can't necessarily read that situation. But at the same time, I think going through the experience, understanding why people do certain things, made me understand how important it is as a female leader in the organisation, and what I can use from the experiences I had, and how I share and support other people coming through.

Helen McCabe

So you would say that period of time, taught you resilience? 

Ilsa Wakeling

Yeah, I got resilience, I probably had more courage. As time went on, I really felt that I had the confidence in being my authentic me, I felt that that was really important that I didn't necessarily change who I was because of the circumstances. 

And that's what I really feel reflects on who I am now, as a police officer. I could understand how other people might operate might not necessarily be who I am, or the values that I hold. 

But at the same time, it was about just sticking to the true self, who I was, and knowing that my values sit in the line with Victoria Police values. 

And if I stick to who I am, I will feel more comfortable moving through those processes, knowing that in my heart, I'm doing what is right, I'm doing what I know will support others. 

But at the same time, it's about being a better version of me.  

Helen McCabe

The thing I really want to explore with you today is what it's like to be unwell. And the topic of this podcast is being too unwell. Can you tell me a bit about the circumstances around you finding out that you had an illness and that you were unwell.  

Ilsa Wakeling

Yeah. Yeah. So I knew that I was probably putting a lot of stress on myself in about 2020 I think it was. And I was a Senior Sergeant going through my studies, I was getting a bachelor, Bachelor of Arts with honours, which is through Victoria Police and University of Tasmania.

Not only that I was, I had returned to softball, I was going through a separation. I had a lot of things on my plate at the time, and then obviously looking at promotion. 

So I think I had my basket or was just too full. And I believe that when autoimmune diseases come about, they're not just something that happens overnight. That's something that has grown and built over time. And then there's something that just triggers it and all of a sudden there it is. 

And that's essentially what happened with my autoimmune disease. It's called dermatomyositis. So “dermato” as in the skin, “myo” being muscle, and “site” as being disease. 

And I recall it was coming up on my hands. I was getting a rash on my knuckles and I thought at the time it was lupus and so I went to my dermatologist to get it checked out and they did a skin biopsy.

Through doing that, that's when they determined it could either be acute lupus or it could be dermatomyositis. So I knew I was quite unwell and food was affecting me. So when I was eating what I thought was healthy food, I would come up in more of a rash. 

And before I knew it, it was on every joint of my body. So it was a bit nerve-wracking at the time, because obviously, your skin is your image really, what people see. 

And I always think that skin is also the identify as your health as well. And I could see that something was going very wrong. 

I then dropped about three dress sizes at the time. So it was around about a 10 or 11. And I went down to about a six, nearly seven within two weeks, and knew something significant was wrong. 

So I, I'd gone to my boss about it just to say, look, something's not right. I'm getting tests done. They're thinking it's this disease, they put me on quite heavy medication. And at the time, I was on methotrexate, which is like a, it's an autoimmune drug. But at the same time, it's also used for chemotherapy. 

So I knew that it was a really heavy drug at the same time. And when I said to my boss, I'm really not doing great. I was doing upgrading at the time. So I was an Acting Inspector. And his response to me was, “Well, are you up to the job?” And that probably surprised me. It took me back a little bit, because I was surprised that that kind of comment was thrown at me in that era. 

So my response was, “I'm fine. I'll handle it. Leave me with it.” And I thought I'm just not going to go into that, again. I'll have to just deal with this myself. 

Helen McCabe

That must have been devastating. 

Ilsa Wakeling

Heartbreaking. Yeah, I felt like I was contributing well, and you know, something like this might happen. But at the same time, I understand that I now understand the severity of the disease. 

But at the time I was pushing through, I was trying to make sure that I was still accountable, I was still responsible in my role. I had other things that were happening. And I'm looking after my son external to work that I was still keeping up with. But I was just being more conscious about how much I was doing to make sure that I was looking after myself. 

Helen McCabe

And you were looking from him, was just some crack in order to make it easier on yourself. Like, A telling doing the right thing by telling him, because in many ways, that is best practice to go and explain. So you just shut the conversation down like “Okay, I'll go and fix this.” 

Ilsa Wakeling  17:40

“I'll deal with this.” Yeah, yeah. So it was a circumstance where I probably expected more, but I know that he was also under pressure. But at the same time, it was me trying to express okay, something's not quite right. I'm going to do what I can to make sure I get on top of it. But you need to know this, because I might need appointments, I might, we haven't got to the bottom of it. 

So let's just get ahead of it and make sure that you're fully aware thinking that that would provide that type of flexibility. Which it didn't. 

Helen McCabe

Yeah, I just, I just want to call him out right now and just go “that's rubbish”. Wherever you are. Tell me, tell me what happened next. 

Ilsa Wakeling

Yeah, a couple of friends that I was working with are either senior sergeants or Acting Inspectors as well. We'd gone through our careers together. And they were aware that it wasn't well, they could see that it wasn't well, and they banded together with me to work out how we would actually get through this process. 

So there was certain things, at the time I had photosensitivity so I couldn't be out in the sunlight. So, we obviously had a lot of things going on at the time. 

So instead of being out in the sunlight, I got to do more strategic work, and they assisted me in being in the sunlight and doing the things that I was not able to do physically. It was probably a blessing in disguise, also that COVID came about in COVID, everyone was locked down. So in that circumstance with the disease, I needed to be locked down, I needed to not be in direct sunlight. And so that protected me in itself. 

I think that also protected me to be honest with my mental health. Had I been locked down by myself, while everyone else could just be free, it may have affected me a lot more than what it had. But knowing that everybody else was having to sit at home and, you know, do their own personal training or watch Netflix, then I felt like I wasn't any different to anybody else. 

So having that network around me really gave me the support. My mum and dad were unbelievable. One of my sisters was unbelievable. I had a lot of treatment and was on a lot of medication at the time. And my, either my sister or my mom would come down, I'd do IVIG at hospitals, so intravenous immunoglobulin, I do that at hospital every six weeks, and I still do, and they would come down and stay with me for the day or the night. 

And if I've got my son, I would pick him up. So I had, I had really good support. And it wasn't, just that support network, it was the challenge network as well. I've always felt value in having both lots, and the support network were the ones that you know, Mum, making sure that I was okay, helping me out giving me support, give me encouragement. 

My challenge network was still keeping me real about it. You know, don't be stupid about this, or have you thought about this, and just really checking me on things, not necessarily always patting me on the back saying how great it was. 

Helen McCabe

So tell me about the challenge network. How did you build that? 

Ilsa Wakeling

I actually developed a challenge network. When I was an Acting Senior Sergeant. I had been approached at the time about being told that I didn't have the support of my peers. 

Helen McCabe

Really? I love talking to people in the in the defence, and paramilitary world. You really get in the moment feedback, don't you? 

Ilsa Wakeling 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

Helen McCabe

I mean, your job is hard enough. And then you get told something like that. Okay.  

Ilsa Wakeling

And the interesting thing was, I knew exactly where it had come from. And it was a one person's opinion opposed to a number of people or my peers. 

So at the time that that feedback was given to me. And so I said, “Leave it with me, and I'll call you back.” And I contacted my peers, and they were the people that I worked directly with, and people that I could trust. There was only four of them at the time. And I knew that if I asked them for an opinion that give me your honest feedback. 

Helen McCabe

So what was the question? When you rang your peers? And you said, you asked them what? 

Ilsa Wakeling

I said “Do I have the confidence of our station? Do they believe in my abilities? And do you think that they work with me? Or do you think they work against me or for me?” 

And they basically said, “Yes you have the confidence, yes, you have the ability, you've got the tactical background, you're building who you are right now. So you don't have everything, but at the same time, that's what you're learning. So you're becoming that. So you're absolutely you've got my confidence.”

I asked whether or not they believed that everyone else had the buy in with me. And they all said yes. And again, these are people that would tell me, “No”, if they had to, they have given me some harsh feedback that I've needed. So I've always liked 360 degree feedback. 

And these guys just happened to be my challenge network at the time and gave me the honest feedback. So I called that person back. There was an Inspector at the time, I called him back and I said, “Look, I've asked the four people that are important to me, I can't take the opinion of every single person, but the ones that are important to me, I've asked, they've given me the feedback, and I'm comfortable with who I am” And left it with that. 

Helen McCabe 

What did he say?

Ilsa Wakeling 

He just said, No, that's fine. He'd had the opinion of one person. 

Helen McCabe

So he thought he was doing the right thing. I'm gonna say that cautiously because ringing someone up and saying that to them is not really great for building confidence. 

Ilsa Wakeling 

It's not beneficial. 

Helen McCabe 

No, not really. Is it common in your universe? 

Ilsa Wakeling

I think so. 

Helen McCabe 

Yeah. I thought you were gonna say that. 

Ilsa Wakeling

We are very good at giving, probably harsh feedback, as you noted, it can be honest, but we're also courageous conversations aren't always at the forefront of people's minds.

So I think it does depend on the audience as well. I know that he felt comfortable in telling me that which I think is probably, you know, if I reflect on that, I think well, he knows that I've got the ability to be able to take it in. 

But at the same time, I don't think he expected I was going to go off and speak to some of my peers to get their opinions. And he knows the people that I'd spoken to, and the reputation of the people that I spoke to. So I think that gave it validity. When I said to him, “Well, these are the four people, and they're very important and honest with me.” 

Helen McCabe

I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole here, which the producer is gonna look at me and think, where she going with this. But what if the four people had said, “yeah, he's right.” What would you have done then?  

Ilsa Wakeling

I'd probably take a step back and go back into my substantive position, and work through what challenges I needed to build on. So it would at least highlight to me what my deficiencies were, I don't like to say weakness.  

Helen McCabe

I completely respect that. And I'm glad I asked. 

Now, I gotta get back to you’re too unwell? You, you've got your challenge network has stepped up, your network stepped up. What is the workplace doing at this point? At a higher up level, you just are you all just papering over it? Or are you getting better. 

Ilsa Wakeling

Health wise, I was doing a lot behind the scenes to fix myself. In terms of what was probably reported on it, I would say very minimal, if anything. 

So I think, the proper answer to your question would be nothing was being done internally. It was just the network that I'd put around me. And the people that I trusted, that supported me through that.  

Helen McCabe

Incredible. Before I go much further, how are you today? 

Ilsa Wakeling 

Really good. 

Helen McCabe

Yeah, you look amazing. 

Ilsa Wakeling 

Thank you.

Helen McCabe

I mean, hopefully, the listeners can see the social media posts. You look amazing. You look, you look healthy. 

Ilsa Wakeling

I feel great. I still do IVIG, every six weeks, that will probably go on for another 18 months, and it might extend to then three months, every three months.

I still take medication as well. And I've just started to reduce some of that medication, on the hope that we can eliminate it and just be relying on the IVIG. 

Helen McCabe 

You’re now working in the wellbeing space? 

Ilsa Wakeling

Yes. 

Helen McCabe 

And I said your first answer to me was that you're working on yourself?

Ilsa Wakeling

Yes. 

Helen McCabe 

Life has a funny way of sorting itself out, doesn't it? 

Ilsa Wakeling

It does. 

Helen McCabe 

So tell me a little bit about how you have managed you're being too unwell, to get to where you are today? Are the two things linked? Or are they completely coincidental? 

Ilsa Wakeling

Yeah, as I said, I came across to Human Resources command with the Assistant Commissioner. 

And he's a great leader, I've learned so much from him. And he was actually the leader of our VEOHRC, Victorian Equal Opportunities Human Rights Commission review. And so I've learned he's, he's a fantastic leader, respects all people. 

And when I came across, I came into an area that I had no experience inside. So I’ve never done a corporate world, never done HR. And so it was a completely new world to me. And it was probably a risk that he took to bring me across. So I was very fortunate from that perspective, it's almost the way I say that at work is when you're at a station or a region, and you do some paperwork, you put in that magic tray, and then it just disappears and gets done. 

But now I'm sitting in the magic tray side, I now understand the process of HR and how everything is done. Moving into health safety wellbeing has, I think it's allowed me to develop as I said, who I am, but at the same time, feel very supported in what I've needed to get better. 

So had I not had that leadership that I got from the Assistant Commissioner. I don't know where I would be. And I don't know how advanced I would be in my career, because I think I would have probably taken a step back if I didn't get that type of support. 

So I'm very fortunate, but also believe that again, you've positioned yourself in an environment that you know, you thrive with the people that you're around, and he allowed me to thrive. 

Sitting in the health safety wellbeing side of it, it's allowed me to probably work more so on my leadership skills, have a bit more compassion with the disease that I have. 

It's have afforded me the opportunity to probably listen more as a leader. And therefore I think, in health safety wellbeing you do hear a lot more of what's going on with our people. And it's allowed me to sort of understand more of our people's issues, and how we could influence and assist in supporting them through their challenging stages. 

Helen McCabe

One of the things that we're attempting to do through this podcast is to help women who might be interested in joining male dominated careers. 

And in particular, being recruited into somewhere like Victoria Police. What would happen today, if a young woman presented with an illness that means her job will be impeded or parts of her job might be impeded. What safeguards are in place to support anyone who is working in your organisation today. 

Ilsa Wakeling

We are working through our welfare services at the moment to grow and adopt it more so to support people in any circumstance of health, safety or wellbeing. 

We have our wellbeing hubs, the getting up and running, there is one that's commenced as a pilot out in Eastern Region, and it's about to start out at Western Region as well. 

And the purpose behind those hubs is to also work through our psychosocial wellbeing or health and wellbeing. As you're probably aware, the psychosocial regulations will be coming out this year. And so we need to align ourselves with what the expectations of those are. 

So it allows us to recruit more staff from an OHS advisor perspective that will have a focus on psychosocial. 

I think in a organisational perspective, that's highly important, because as we're only just speaking earlier about the high volume of work that we currently have, everyone's constantly busy. It then talks about role clarity, it talks about bullying, and it talks about all psychosocial risks that you might have in a workplace. 

So currently, there are processes that have been put into play, to assist and support our members on the front line, and not just us sitting in their ivory tower and expecting that this is going to all work perfectly, but understanding from our member’s perspective, what is actually going on and how we can assist them, which will probably be formulated somewhat around those regulations. 

Helen McCabe

And do you think there's any lingering suspicion that you're too unwell? 

Ilsa Wakeling

No. I think I'm fortunate, I think, I put myself into a network, which were a network of people that have the same disease, which is really it's a rare disease. 

And my rheumatologist said to me, he's only treated 15 people in 30 years. So putting myself in that environment. You know, a friend of mine recently just gave me a book about glucose revolution. So that's another thing that heightens my understanding of my body, my system and how I function better. 

I, you know, I have micro-habits that I make sure that I set myself up for success at the start of my day, and whether that's the early rise, the natural sunlight, you know, breathing.  

Things that I've put in play to actually set myself up for success in a day, it comes down to my sleep habits, everything that you don't really know about until you get something like this. 

And some people do, but I never really looked at those intricate details. I looked at it probably from an athlete’s perspective of how do I gain the maximum. But this has now allowed me to gain maximums in my own life, my own choices, and you know, internal and external to work. 

So, again, putting the right people around me has supported as well. And being supported by a great boss, like the Assistant Commissioner, that sort of stuff, I think has allowed me to thrive. 

But at the same time, understanding the importance of switching off and having a disconnect. So it's been a work in progress. And it hasn't been something that I've done on my own. It's definitely been a support challenge network. That's, that's got me to where I am. So the unwell side of it. I think it's still there. But it's manageable. 

Helen McCabe

It's very hard to do things on your own. Thank you so much for sharing. I think there's, you know, there is a lot in what you said today, and great to talk.

Outro: Helen McCabe 

Next time, Australian National University Chancellor and former Foreign Affairs Minister, Julie Bishop, on being too diplomatic.

Julie Bishop

I didn't want women to think that this is the story of what always happens to women in politics. I wanted to leave the message that it's okay. Now, I didn't win the leadership battle. But there are plenty of other things for me to do, you just draw a line and you move on.

Police careers promotion: Sally Spicer

Too Much is a podcast series proudly supported by Victoria Police, who are looking for more women to join their ranks. To explore a career with Victoria Police, visit the link in the show notes or head to police.vic.gov.au.